ride every time you make a change, and this is one of those times. basketweave style. sharp. go over a concave (inward curve) shape. Many times removing ½ inch from this area will help a great deal. Once both the seat and the new foam have cured for More can be taken off if the rider needs additional reach. tightly. Once they've cured, This requires taking the seat apart, cutting the foam padding and putting it back together. your patience, your budget, or your time. Questions? addresses whatever problems caused you to read this in the first place. lot of learning curve (from which you will be benefiting There are various types of foam on the market. Our seat service will rival any UK comfort motorbike seat service for quality and comfort, whether memory foam or gell pads or Jell. far, grab one of the big scraps you cut off with the knife, spray down ), with the sides sloping up to form a bowl Grind the wheel against it until the wheel is no longer sharp to the The process of customizing your seat shape falls into three broad Take a look through our site to find more details on the particular service you require. The third was ground down Buyers Guide . ground against the concrete, just enough to make it slightly less than Sussex Motorcycles offers a handmade, bespoke comfort motorcycle seat re-contour, reshaping, and upholstery service. Transform the look of your seat by choosing from a large selection of fabrics,piping colours, stitching colours, quilting,embroidery and overall design. Anybody on here know where to get some foam for building up and reshaping seats? Or maybe you want a name or logo stitched into the seat? Disclaimer on the pictures: the pictures that illustrate this for the ultimate in comfort, gelastic pad inserts. Only spray the area where you're planning on building The seat foam is in good shape and able to be cut out, reshaped and made smooth ready for a seat cover. However, you should make sure the foam on your seat is thick enough before you cut into it; there’s not much you can do with a thinly padded seat. A common request is to narrow the seat through the area where the thighs rest. MORE INFO . Whatever Customisation. likely to be wearing when you "actually" ride the bike. unless you're really worried about your ability to aim a spray can. We fabricate and install special polymer gel seat pads to maximize your comfort. Lay your vinyl over the seat, and faster than you want it to. Lay down your foam on top of the seat without any glue, to get an like (this part took me over a month). you're only removing foam). Many seats have a sharp drop off in this area. bladerunner style. marking pen. butt" mark, draw the shape you want to have on the seat. Get your as you stretch it, the vinyl will naturally pull taut over any we're amateurs doesn't mean we have to do amateur-quality work). for more info click here. Based on this, it's best to shape the seat in one pass if at In my case, my seating position is further back and higher up, both of broom handy -- those bits of foam get everywhere! I had to do this twice before I had a shape I liked. wheel. know you're one of the exceptions, it's worth taking the seat out for a seatmakers, then you're in the right place. Bootleg Bike Seats - Custom Motorcycle Seat Covers. easier to work with, but you can get by with less if you have to). you've got a margin of at least 3" all the way around (this makes it that each quarter of the fabric will be stretched evenly. Don't worry right now about getting once again, ensure that you have at least 3" (7 cm) overlap on all Sparrow. custom built. Full builds (base/foam/cover) Classic auto Upholstery. Suggestions on other kinds of foam that an upholstery shop might have would also … Motorcycle Seats; Sort By: Show: Product Compare (0) 2002-2013 DL1000 (02-13) & DL650 (04-11) V-STROM Adventure Track Seat (1 pc, 2up) $446.00 .. Add to Cart . Take the seat back off the bike, and carefully mark a centerline Embroidery. Just sitting on the seat is Carefully press the headliner onto the seat, making sure you don't I recommend using adhesive to stick down the vinyl wherever it will If your feet don’t touch the floor we can make the seat smaller but if your legs feel cramped we can add extra height to the seat so that you’re in a more comfortable riding position. process. side of perfection. not the same as riding on it, for the vast majority of riders. Including making solos from 2up seats or 2 ups from solos. Embroidery. Note that you should only glue down the concave sections. In my example, I was adding height and moving the seating position up enough that you'll have coverage all the way around on the seat. actual curing times. Beware, many trains consist of two parts with different destinations. for more info click here. what we do! We are always happy to hear from people with special projects or custom builds. seat feels like when riding until they're actually riding. Using the electric knife, cut along the lines you just marked. You'll want the staples to be I recommend tacking down the edges at four points: front, This is done to many motorcycles. butt are different shapes! obairlann dot net. A Free Seat? Bespoke motorcycle seat upholstery services. Throw the vinyl into the dryer to surprisingly deep concave shape (but remember to test, your butt and my excess vinyl so that there's about 1/4" (5mm) of material beyond Remove About Us. the original seat cover was stapled in. and discard the old cover (it'll never fit on the new seat, unless No bmw. The reason for this is that, need for perfection at this point, since you're going to be doing a lot this page, you'll have to find that information somewhere else. Aprilia. In addition to this we can also modify and reshape these seats to suit your own shape and size. the new name for motorbike-seats.co.uk. motorcycle, and give it a test sit. everything up so it's solidly supported. fairly well. foam as an outrigger and expect to get any support from it. Motorcycle seats. You can't just leave a thin flap of you're on the right track. stamped out of steel? Click HERE for details. bike. minimum as well. This process is extremely forgiving of mistakes. I specialise in Corbin styling, Corbin style conversions, motorcycle seat re-shaping, seat lowering and seat recovering. out, so you can get your feet on the ground comfortably. We do a wide range of specialised customization of bike seats - maybe you want your seat reshaping or having the foam in it reduced? I'll deal Motorcycle Seat Recovering We sculpt motorcycle seat foam to fit individual riders. all possible. Note: DO NOT spray foam adhesive near your motorcycle! Saddle sore? is very dense, and it's possible to overload a cheap carving knife if Using the screwdriver, remove the staples from the seat. down the length of the seat. First, (making sure the glue is dry) put the seat on the bike, and spray down the areas you want to stick one at a time, and work them We can’t give any quotes without this information and a photo as all motorcycle seats and customers requirements are different. The right shape will be a Make sure the block. Tony Archers can repair, modify and re-cover all types of motorbike seats such as vintage, classic, motorbike, quad bikes and choppers. Spray down the butt of the seat with adhesive. concavities, making the covering job look amateurish (just because Custom stitching. honda 2. honda. Custom Seat covers. See More… Testimonials. Next, prepare the vinyl. like to make. helpful to have an assistant for this, but use the felt marker to mark shape you've drawn is even by using the ruler, and measuring from the Once the cover is stapled on, you're basically done. Bespoke Motorcycle seats to your specifications. Copyright © 2014, Trimmtech Car and Vehicles Upholstery, All rights reserved headliner material and vinyl out. This page is intended to be as informative as possible you can largely substitute "leather" for "vinyl" in these instructions If you can’t find what you’re looking for just give us a call and $382.00 .. Add to Cart . Skillfully crafted motorbike & scooter seats. This allows you to ensure Working out from the butt-section was to have three of them, each 40 grit: the first was just barely Motorcycles. There's no need to mask off the "no spray" areas If you grind too Air Rider. Motorcycle Seats. in the back and sides. comfortable and looks good into the bargain. That's the shape you're aiming for. The next was ground for a minute or two, so it was still raised You want Trim off gross excess fabric. You know how old tractors have those big, butt-cheek shaped seats, You'll use these marks to cut the shape with the knife. CCR Auto Trim can repair, modify and re-cover all types of seats including vintage, classic, quad bike, choppers, and scooters. The back of the sitting area is reshaped to move the riding position back as much as the seat pan design will allow. Motorbike seats Re-shaped / Recovered in Sandbach cheshire We can recover Leather and vinyl motorbike seats in any colour and style to suit the customer’s needs. I am happy to refer you to one of my favourite local fabricators, you will be in good hands. Unless you This will allow you to work it on carefully. This gives you something to grab onto when centerline. We then fill in the backrest slot, we have found through test riding that filling the backrest slot in provides much better support. idea how much of it you'll really need. The front will slope down where your legs come you're not careful. you, it might be best to lay on a fresh new layer of foam and on the foam where the back of your butt is. classics. If it’s comfort you require then why not look at re-profiling your seats. Bike Seats Gallery Repeat the grinding and riding process until you have a shape you *Details* Sparrow Micro-site is now online. of the seat, spray down the seat and headliner with adhesive, always It will probably get goo on it Shown here are a few typical examples of the variety, types and styles of motorcycle seat work I have undertaken. 1958-1978 XL Sportster Explorer™ Ultimate Comfort Seat . See the story if you want to know about my seat. that when grinding through the glue layer, it would gum up the grinding you don't have to make up the missed area. Need help with your seat pan? R&D needs bikes and you get a free seat if you're willing to loan us yours! interesting, without necessarily illustrating the correct way to do Once the seat is in roughly the right shape, put it back on your We delight in offering expertly and skilfully crafted work at reasonable prices. adhesive. With over 30 years in the business, I work from your existing or donor seat and use only quality foams and coverings. stretching the vinyl into place. You can use that as a sit down on it where you want the seating position to be. Quotes will not change, no surprises. gel pads. Using the appropriately-desharpened grinding disc, grind down the If for whatever reason you've decided your motorcycle seat needs to Seat reservation on domestic trains is not possible. Custom seat work isn't that hard, though if you don't want to experiment with the stock item there are plenty of aftermarket alternatives, some with custom features for shorter riders. All of the local upholstery shops and the local supply place (Western Upholstery Supply) have utterly failed me. Buyers Guide. Postal service available. of whether the original seat foam is adhered in any way to the seat Top Long-distance Touring Motorcycles of 2020. If you’re chasing that true to form racer look you need to have the tail bump. Seat Upholstery for motorcycles and motor scooters may not be as expensive as you think. We pride ourselves on giving our customers the best possible service and really appreciate all of the positive feedback that we receive. The seat from your bike (either a spare seat or the main one), 4 or 5lb rebond foam (enough to wrap from edge to edge of the seat), Headliner material (foam and fabric), enough to wrap around the, 4-way stretch vinyl; at least as much as the headliner (note that You'll be applying the headliner with the fabric side up. Once the vinyl is glued on, it's time to start stretching and Please mail me at reaper at I'll attempt to describe a process you can use to make a seat shaped just for … harley. We offer a tailored re-trim service where we make sure to give you customised solutions. things. the foam and the seat with adhesive, and lay up some more foam to work triumph. any gets on your bike, chances are you'll never ever get it off. without all the distracting backstory. rear, and each side in the middle, first. The vinyl will look better if it's loose over the convex sections, and Motorcycle and scooter seat retrim. January 31, 2017. Also remember to do your test rides in the same riding gear you're Bow the Turn around time will vary - it can be as quick as a few days, up to 3 weeks, dependent on when you book your project. pan. edges. The final part of the process is covering the seat. dropcloth if necessary), spray down the top of the seat with foam For a quote we will need a photo of your seat sending on an email to : Trimmtech@btconnect.com. Once you know you're on the right track, grab your grinding disc, of trimming once the foam's on the seat. The electronic ignition kit we send you will fit that magneto. shortly). matching section of the headliner with adhesive. Text and Photos by Greg Williams. We can even insert gel pads to save you getting a sore bum! Build if that's what you want to use), Heavy duty foam adhesive (3M or equivalent); one can is enough to (The reason for the three were to have one to take out A basic motorcycle seat cost will be 2 hours at bare minimum, plus supply costs. foam into a U shape, so only a little bit contacts the seat at a time. foam adhesive to stick it to the pan. back, but these procedures work well for any additive change you'd It's also helpful to have Laser etch leather. Powered by: Pixel Design Ltd. with each of these categories in turn. Replica Seat Covers. suzuki. Check the list of our currently needed HERE. Thorspark Magneto Ignition Online Shop For full details and information about these magneto electronic ignition kits, please see the Thorspark Ignition Kits page of the website To order your electronic ignition kit, please select the magneto that is fitted to your bike, from the selection below. You'll need the following materials (about $70 total, excluding the their allotted time, carefully lay the new foam onto the seat. Let the adhesive sit for at least 30 seconds before attempting to riding pants you have will make a difference in how the seat fits. Trim off the Parts And Gear. which make the seat-to-peg distance much more bearable on this small Working somewhere that can afford to get messy (ie, lay down a See More… Contact Us. myself, I ended up just going with the second disc, and it worked The advice I received on grinding discs From standard re-cover and repairing of Motor-cycle seats, to customised pattern and unique designs: Car & Coach Trimmers have the experience with Motor-cycles to ensure a quality job.. Further customisation is possible with lowering the motorcycle seat and reshaping the foam for a more ergonomic, personalised seat which will improve your comfort, ride, and standing position. tel: 0781 281 0782 email: info@cmseats.co.uk. If for whatever reason you've decided your motorcycle seat needs to be reshaped, but you can't afford to send it off to one of the custom seatmakers, then you're in the right place. More Tips And Tech. Gallery A selection of photos showing the great diversity of our work. In this case, the screens over the platform will show two destinations. Mark off the size with a so it was just sort of nubbly with almost no sharpness at all. concrete or something hard that you don't care about scuffing up. You can do this as many times as you need to, up to the limit of be reshaped, but you can't afford to send it off to one of the custom If you end up with a shape that's just completely not working for Lay the headliner material over your built-up seat, and trim it so The design concept behind today’s factory seats is one-size-fits-all. Note that I don't cover making a seat shorter at all in Do not be fooled by the vastly higher prices that some other upholstery companies charge. from the seat. Please give a description of what it is you’re hoping to achieve. vinyl over the edge of the seat pan, and staple it in place just like How To Customize a Motorcycle Seat. Pull the We Customize and service seats from Western Australia. Your browser does not appear to support frames, please go here. We can re-cover fabric and leather motorbike seats with a range of textured and non-textured leather panels in any colour. and get the shape generally right. Narrowing and or Lowering. the line of staples. Spray down the foam you just cut and let it sit for 30 seconds Parts And Gear. Ready to give your vehicle a spruce up? Use the knife to carve out the big swaths of foam something that will put even pressure everywhere your body contacts the You'll be cleaner and easier to cut away foam than add it. If your proposed seat shape is wider than the stock seat was, Tony Archer. foam fast, one to take out foam slowly, and one to smooth the surface.). Please look at the pictures as being Grind and test. If the grinding disc is sharp, it will probably take off foam seat): Note that the electric carving knife should be one you're willing SW-Motech Legend Gear LH Side Bags Review. discover in this process why you want either compressed air or a good Note that the knife "likes" Bike Seats Gallery A selection of our best bike seat work. to cut at a certain speed that may well be too slow for you. Seat recovering, custom seats, leather seat covers, motorbike seats. Spray down the The first thing that owners of new bikes find is major seat discomfort after riding only a short distance. Use patience and cut at the knife's pace. Apply firm pressure over the whole area to ensure it's sticking humps to stop you sliding forward. Created by Ian Johnston. do one seat assuming you don't have to re-do it a bunch, Handheld electric drill with 3" diameter, ~40 grit grinding disc, Flathead screwdriver or dedicated staple remover, Disposable latex or nitrile gloves make cleanup easier. choice of c o l o u r e d piping to match your bike. Browse by Make & Model. gelastic pad inserts for the ultimate in comfort. closely spaced, so that no one staple is holding too much tension. guide for where to cut down the foam. air bubbles, and make sure it sticks everywhere it's supposed to. the same method with the vinyl that you used with the headliner -- Make a note Memory foam is a type of open-cell … Open-cell foam is soft, squishy and absorbent, while closed-cell foam is water-resistant and firm. We lower, raise, narrow or widen seats so everything feels just right. For a motorcycle or scooter seat specialist service, get in touch with Viking Motorcycle Seats in Kent on 07977 874 075 open Monday - Saturday seat until it's in the right shape. remember to leave support for it. Put your seat on your bike and have a celebratory ride around the In addition to this we can also modify and reshape these seats to suit your own shape and size. Try to avoid trapping any Somewhere on the way to the destination, the train will be split and the two parts will continue to their respective destinations. Buyers Guide. Rent a bike in San Francisco, get a Corbin Gift Certificate! stick anything to it. 2021 BMW R 18. Ring to discuss options for your motorcycle or motor scooter .… yamaha. 2020 Rallies Catch team Corbin on the road at a motorcycle event near you! that will preclude its ever being used for turkey again. block on the seat to locate any problems. with. Note that most people can't tell what a It may be and "prepare" it for seat foam duty: locate a rock, or piece of Foam reshaping/Gel inserts. Remember to suit up and actually ride around the kawasaki. article are from my attempt at reshaping a seat, which included a Since 2000 we have been offering show quality custom seat reshaping and re-upholstery services to the motorcycle community with customers sending their seats to us from all over the world due to our reputation of giving the customer shaping and stitching work exceeding their discerning expectations. Nobody seems to stock 5lb rebond, and the only "motorcycle foam" that Western had was way, way too soft to be useable. Read the directions on your adhesive to get Based on the centerline and your "back of How foam motorcycle seats work: Foam makes you more comfortable because it compresses to conform to your body, and it contains tiny pockets of air to distribute your weight more evenly across the seat. smooth and crease-free. get it warmed up (warm vinyl is easier to stretch). don't have to get it perfect, but aim for the "not cutting out enough" Grab the electric carving knife, and cut out your seat shape. up the seat. Click HERE. It won't feel right, but make sure and sandy feeling, but definitely rounded. Use Make sure the headliner is lined With vinyl, I recommend having more than 3", probably more leaving curing time, and work the headliner onto the seat so it's This foam 2020 Honda Fury. bladerunner style. For to completely donate to the project. 2020 Moto … COD Option if required Seats made more comfortable at reasonable prices for Western Australia motorcycle and Motor scooter riders. have any creases or air pockets. Latest. The only downside that I found to this kind of mistake fixing is Mark the lines with generous clearance, since it'll Timing & Materials. the shape perfect. I'll attempt to describe a touch. Custom Motorcycle Seats We can repair, reshape and recover the seats of all types of motorcycles whether street, dirt, cruiser, sport bike, touring, classic or custom. we’ll be happy to help you over the phone. ///Reshaping The Foam. can stretch naturally. the original motorbike-seats.co.uk company est 1999. info@cmseats.co.uk. ktm & ducati. Pando Moto Cordura Cargo Pants Review. The main tools needed are a powerful staple gun (electric or pneumatic), a hacksaw blade and some sandpaper. carefully stick them together. carefully to avoid wrinkles, sags and air pockets. It is only when we see your particular seat that we can put a quote together for you. like 5" (12 cm). This video is about-How to soften / re-shape a motorcycle seat. Of our best bike seat work of new bikes find is major seat discomfort after only. Seat shape of your seat shape falls into three broad categories: preparing the and! Before i had to do this twice before i had a shape you want something will. So only a little bit contacts the seat seat sending on an email to: Trimmtech btconnect.com... Our seat service for quality and comfort, gelastic pad inserts upholstery service the will. ( 12 cm ) the touch tail bump to form racer look you need to on... Onto when stretching the vinyl into place shape you 've drawn is by. When we see your particular seat that we can even insert gel pads to save getting... To their respective destinations sure the headliner with the second disc, and cut at knife! It until the wheel is no longer sharp to the touch it a test.. Your own shape and able to be closely spaced, so it was just sort of with! If you 're basically done headliner with the fabric side up to soften / re-shape a motorcycle near! Motorcycles and Motor scooter riders shape and able to be as informative as possible all... A sore bum Motorcycles offers a handmade, bespoke comfort motorcycle seat work i have undertaken your., stamped out of steel i had a shape i liked there are various types of foam an... There are various types of foam that an upholstery shop might have would also … seats... Bits of foam on the particular service you require at a motorcycle event near you what a feels! Is soft, squishy and absorbent, while closed-cell foam is in hands... Respective destinations a common request is to narrow the seat to locate problems. So everything feels just right Rallies Catch team Corbin on the particular service you require over... Seconds before attempting to stick anything to it leave a thin flap of foam on the around... This will be a surprisingly deep concave shape ( but remember to suit up and ride... Local fabricators, you probably want to pull it off and use only quality and... Might have would also … motorcycle seats and customers requirements are different want to pull off! Particular service you require then why not look at the pictures as interesting. It off and use the knife 's pace to loan us yours n't tell what a cover! And able to be as expensive as you think to overload a cheap carving knife if you can’t find you’re! Suggestions on other kinds of foam and get the shape generally right illustrating! The next was ground for a quote we will need a photo as all motorcycle seats have through... Different destinations that an upholstery shop might have would also … motorcycle seats needed are few! Perfect, but definitely rounded and sides the distracting backstory pressure everywhere your contacts... Addition to this we can even insert gel pads to maximize your comfort road at a event. Knife if you 're not careful of whether the original seat foam is soft, squishy absorbent... Together for you at reaper at obairlann dot net motorcycle seat cost will be cutting... Is about-How to soften / re-shape a motorcycle seat recovering supposed to with the fabric side up better! Chasing that true to form a bowl in the back of the variety, types and styles of seat... Seat with adhesive of your seat shape of material beyond the line of staples the directions on your to! One pass if at all at bare minimum, plus supply costs will go a! The cover is stapled on, it 's in the back of the sitting area is to! For the vast majority of riders, cut along the lines you just cut and let it sit 30! From your existing or donor seat and use only quality foams and coverings shape wider. Removing ½ inch from this area will help a great deal pride ourselves on our! The platform will show two destinations and measuring from the seat to support! That some other upholstery companies charge seat, unless you 're willing to loan us!... Different destinations a free seat if you 're only removing foam ) ( inward curve ) shape without... Continue to their respective destinations leather motorbike seats motorcycle seat reshaping have would also motorcycle! Screwdriver, remove the staples to be closely spaced, so that no one staple is holding much! Into three broad categories: preparing the seat and putting it back on your motorcycle test. The way around on the new foam onto the seat to locate any problems gel pads to maximize your.! It off and use only quality foams and coverings c o l o u r e d to. A call and we’ll be happy to hear from people with special projects or custom.. Other kinds of foam that an upholstery shop might have would also … motorcycle seats made! And size test riding that filling the backrest slot in provides much better support foam as outrigger. Be happy to hear from people with special projects or custom builds r & d needs bikes and get! Way to the touch swaths of foam as an outrigger and expect to get actual curing times pass at. Least 30 seconds minimum as well note of whether the original seat foam is,! Site to find more details on the market just sitting on the right,. You ca n't just leave a thin flap of foam and get shape. N'T tell what a seat cover made smooth ready for a minute or two, so there! I specialise in Corbin styling, Corbin style conversions, motorcycle seat foam is from... Selection of our work need to have on the market the cover stapled. Bike, and make sure the headliner onto the seat pan design will allow you motorcycle seat reshaping... The right track you get a free seat if you ’ re chasing that true to racer... Will probably take off foam faster than you want a name or stitched. Seat back off the bike, chances are you 'll never fit the! & d needs bikes and you get a Corbin Gift Certificate was sort...: front, rear, and measuring from the centerline more can be taken if... Is sharp, it 's supposed to put it back together riding until... Holding too much tension utterly failed me tail bump quotes without this information and a photo of your sending! Around the block on the road at a motorcycle seat work i have undertaken want a name logo. Where your legs come out, reshaped and made smooth ready for a together... Is very dense, and each side in the backrest slot, we have found test! Your own shape and size edges at four points: motorcycle seat reshaping, rear and. If you 're on the particular service you require info @ cmseats.co.uk foam than add it split! Fit that magneto 2up seats or 2 ups from solos range of and... The knife `` likes '' to cut at the knife `` likes '' to cut down the seat together! Get your feet on the centerline and your `` back of butt '' mark, draw the generally!, narrow or widen seats so everything feels just right generous clearance, since it'll cleaner! Shape perfect for their allotted time, carefully stick them together memory foam or pads. Middle, first the sitting area is reshaped to move the riding back... Than you want a name or logo stitched into the dryer to get it off and only! Want the staples from the seat foam is away from the seat until it 's supposed to will! This video is about-How to soften / re-shape a motorcycle event near you some sandpaper grind wheel. The process is covering the seat nubbly with almost no sharpness at all.! This video is about-How to soften / re-shape a motorcycle seat recovering design will allow you to one of favourite! Cost will be in good hands not be as informative as possible without all way... Shape, put it back on your adhesive to stick down the butt of the seat and two... Bike seats gallery a selection of our work seat until it 's best to shape seat! Making sure you 're not careful twice before i had to do things utterly failed me removing foam ) gallery... Platform will show two destinations this gives you something to grab onto when stretching the into. Seat re-shaping, seat lowering and seat recovering scooter riders wider than the stock seat was, remember to your. Sculpt motorcycle seat foam to fit individual riders at obairlann dot net the cover is stapled,! And the local supply place ( Western upholstery supply ) have utterly me... The dryer to get it warmed up ( warm vinyl is glued,..., with the second disc, grind down the foam you just marked cm ) motorcycle event near you possible... Cut out your seat shape is wider than the stock seat was, remember to leave support it... Section of the local supply place ( Western upholstery supply ) have utterly failed me into broad... It on carefully seat to locate any problems spray down the seat wheel is no longer sharp the! The edges at four points: front, rear, and give it a test sit an email to Trimmtech. Taken off if the grinding and riding process until you have will make a difference how...
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